Discussion:
[rrd-users] Incorrect MAX total from consolidated cacti graph
(too old to reply)
Simon Hobson
2015-10-28 09:55:51 UTC
Permalink
I have a cacti graph which is a consolidation of 34 graphs of online user
counts. A primary purpose of this graph is to identify peaks in user counts.
My problem is that the SUM of the MAX values is incorrect unless I constrain
the timeline of the graph to the minute containing the peak.
You can't add MAX values once data is consolidated - it will give you incorrect results. Eg, take the following sets of data :

100,0,0,0
0,100,0,0
0,0,100,0
0,0,0,100

If you add up the unconsolidated data, you'll get the correct answer that the max values are 100,100,100,100.

But if you consolidate them, you'll get the following max values :
100
100
100
100

and if you then add them up, you get 400.

OK, that's an extreme example, but it shows the problem.

The answer is that you need to do the adding up BEFORE consolidating the data. I wrote a script to do just this (for generating combined mail queue stats across several servers). It's harder than it looks at first glance, but basically I iterate round a loop, find the last update time of the combined stats file, and if all the source files have an update time which is later then I pull down the next set of numbers, add them up, and update the combined file - else I sleep for a while to wait for new data. That bit is fairly easy - but you also need to consider if one (or more) server is down and not updating it's stats - then you need to decide how long you'll wait (in case it's lost connectivity but is still collecting stats) before you ignore it's values and just combine what you do have. And if you get behind for whatever reason (eg the server doing the consolidation is down for maintenance), then you also need to restrict how far back you go so you can always work with unconsolida
ted data.

If you have a variable number of sources then it's a bit more fiddly still.

Summary: Create a "total users" data file, have a script that fetches new data as it's available (before consolidation) and totals it into this summary file. Then consolidate the data in that summary file.
Steve Shipway
2015-10-28 21:41:46 UTC
Permalink
I have a cacti graph which is a consolidation of 34 graphs of online user
counts.
A primary purpose of this graph is to identify peaks in user counts.
My problem is that the SUM of the MAX values is incorrect unless I
constrain
the timeline of the graph to the minute containing the peak. I have
manually
calculated the MAX values from the RRD files and know that the total of a
recent peak is 242,409. Below is a screen capture of the one-minute sample
in the graph which shows a matching total.
I can't tell for certain without having the actual RRDTool commandline used
to generate these graphs and the structure of the underlying RRD files, but
it is probably because of one of these things --

1. MAX( a+b ) <= MAX( a ) + MAX( b )
2. MAX( a ) >= MAX( AVG ( a ) )

The first can occur if you are adding the components before they are stored
into the RRD. This is probably not the case here as you state that the
result is correct at small granularity (1min interval) but low at large
granularity (5min).

The second is more likely, and is caused when the wrong RRA is used to
generate the graph. If your RRD files do not contain a MAX CF RRA, then
this is approximated by RRDTool at graph creation time using the available
data. When you zoom out, RRDTool will move from using the 1pdp-AVG RRA to
using the 5pdp-AVG RRA, and so you will actually be graphing the maximum
5min average rather than the maximum sample. The same problem hit me a long
time back with Routers2, and the solution was to explicitly use the MAX CF
RRA in the RRDTool commandline -- RRD1.4 also allows you to enforce the
'reduce' method to be MAX and enforce the granularity where necessary to
avoid this problem. Calculations like 95th Percentile are particularly
prone to this.

Unfortunately, your RRD file and the commandline are being generated
internally by Cacti, so it is possible that it is not requesting MAX values
correctly - or even that there are no MAX RRAs available in the RRD file
itself.

I would suggest that you use 'rrdtool info' to verify that you have MAX CF
RRAs at the appropriate sizes and if not, create them.

Steve


Steve Shipway
T: +64 9 3737 599 ext 86487
E: ***@auckland.ac.nz
Simon Hobson
2015-10-29 08:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Shipway
Unfortunately, your RRD file and the commandline are being generated
internally by Cacti, ...
You can get Cacti to show you the command it used to draw a graph - useful for debugging.

Also be aware that I've had "issues" getting Cacti to use the correct def. IIRC (it was a while ago now) I ended up drawing an invisible line for the max value so I could get it to use the right set of data to generate the subsequent max value for a gprint.
jbhowe
2015-10-29 13:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to both Simon and Steve for their responses. After carefully reading
these responses, I am beginning to believe that rrdtool is selecting
consolidated values when the MAX samples required for the total are still in
the rrd file. Below are some more facts that may help shed some light on
this issue:

I am using RRDtool 1.3.8.

The RRA definition for all the files involved includes a MAX CDEF.
All the files have one-minute samples.
The one-minute MAX samples are still in the rrd files for the timeframe
(10/18/2015 @ 13:56) of the original posting.

I am including a copy of the cacti graph definition below (edited with 'ABC'
to hide customer names). It is clear to me that the rrdtool is simply adding
all the MAX values.

/usr/bin/rrdtool graph - \
--imgformat=PNG \
--start='1445190960' \
--end='1445190960' \
--title='All Production In Channel Users' \
--base='1000' \
--height='120' \
--width='500' \
--alt-autoscale-max \
--lower-limit='0' \
COMMENT:"From 2015/10/18 13\:56\:00 To 2015/10/18 13\:56\:00\c" \
COMMENT:" \n" \
--vertical-label='' \
--slope-mode \
--font TITLE:12: \
--font AXIS:8: \
--font LEGEND:8: \
--font UNIT:8: \
DEF:a='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3892.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:b='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3825.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:c='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3912.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:d='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_3780.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:e='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3834.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:f='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3807.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:g='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3709.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:h='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3718.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:i='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4383.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:j='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3727.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ba='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3771.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bb='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4630.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bc='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3968.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bd='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3958.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:be='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4478.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bf='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4100.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bg='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3752.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bh='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4123.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bi='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4058.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bj='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_4090.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ca='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4074.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cb='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4114.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cc='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4133.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cd='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4762.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ce='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3744.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cf='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4016.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cg='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4025.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ch='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3816.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ci='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3843.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cj='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4043.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:da='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3673.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:db='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3648.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:dc='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4541.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:dd='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4592.rrd':'musers':MAX \
CDEF:cdefde='TIME,1446121816,GT,a,a,UN,0,a,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,b,b,UN,0,b,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,c,c,UN,0,c,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,d,d,UN,0,d,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,e,e,UN,0,e,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,f,f,UN,0,f,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,g,g,UN,0,g,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,h,h,UN,0,h,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,i,i,UN,0,i,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,j,j,UN,0,j,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ba,ba,UN,0,ba,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bb,bb,UN,0,bb,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bc,bc,UN,0,bc,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bd,bd,UN,0,bd,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,be,be,UN,0,be,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bf,bf,UN,0,bf,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bg,bg,UN,0,bg,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bh,bh,UN,0,bh,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bi,bi,UN,0,bi,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bj,bj,UN,0,bj,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ca,ca,UN,0,ca,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cb,cb,UN,0,cb,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cc,cc,UN,0,cc,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cd,cd,UN,0,cd,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ce,ce,UN,0,ce,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cf,cf,UN,0,cf,IF,IF,T
IME,1446121816,GT,cg,cg,UN,0,cg,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ch,ch,UN,0,ch,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ci,ci,UN,0,ci,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cj,cj,UN,0,cj,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,da,da,UN,0,da,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,db,db,UN,0,db,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,dc,dc,UN,0,dc,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,dd,dd,UN,0,dd,IF,IF,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+'
\
AREA:a#FFF200FF:'ABC' \
AREA:b#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:c#EA8F00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:d#4444FFFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:e#FF0000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:f#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:g#FF0000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:h#EACC00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:i#FF7D00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:j#000000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ba#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bb#FF5576FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bc#FFF200FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bd#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:be#4444FFFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bf#F5F800FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bg#0022CCFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bh#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bi#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bj#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ca#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cb#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cc#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cd#00FF00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ce#74C366FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cf#EACC00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cg#000000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ch#4400CCFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ci#FFF200FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cj#EA8F00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:da#EACC00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:db#FF0000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:dc#7CB3F1FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:dd#FFF200FF:'ABC\n':STACK \
GPRINT:cdefde:LAST:' CUR\: %8.0lf' \
GPRINT:cdefde:AVERAGE:'AVG\: %8.0lf' \
GPRINT:cdefde:MAX:'MAX\: %8.0lf'
Viewing Graph Properties 'All Production In Channel Users'
All Production In Channel Users Zoom Graph
CSV Export










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Alex van den Bogaerdt
2015-10-29 16:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbhowe
Thanks to both Simon and Steve for their responses. After carefully
reading
these responses, I am beginning to believe that rrdtool is selecting
consolidated values when the MAX samples required for the total are still
in
the rrd file. Below are some more facts that may help shed some light on
maybe this helps?

http://rrdtool.vandenbogaerdt.nl/min-avg-max.php


(please ignore the rest, my dumb phone has trouble doing what i want)


A definition for all the files involved includes a MAX CDEF.
Post by jbhowe
All the files have one-minute samples.
The one-minute MAX samples are still in the rrd files for the timeframe
I am including a copy of the cacti graph definition below (edited with
'ABC'
to hide customer names). It is clear to me that the rrdtool is simply
adding
all the MAX values.
/usr/bin/rrdtool graph - \
--imgformat=PNG \
--start='1445190960' \
--end='1445190960' \
--title='All Production In Channel Users' \
--base='1000' \
--height='120' \
--width='500' \
--alt-autoscale-max \
--lower-limit='0' \
COMMENT:"From 2015/10/18 13\:56\:00 To 2015/10/18 13\:56\:00\c" \
COMMENT:" \n" \
--vertical-label='' \
--slope-mode \
--font TITLE:12: \
--font AXIS:8: \
--font LEGEND:8: \
--font UNIT:8: \
DEF:a='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3892.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:b='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3825.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:c='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3912.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:d='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_3780.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:e='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3834.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:f='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3807.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:g='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3709.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:h='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3718.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:i='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4383.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:j='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3727.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ba='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3771.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bb='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4630.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bc='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3968.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bd='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3958.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:be='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4478.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bf='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4100.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bg='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3752.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bh='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4123.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bi='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4058.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:bj='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_4090.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ca='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4074.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cb='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4114.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cc='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4133.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cd='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4762.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ce='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3744.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cf='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4016.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cg='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4025.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ch='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3816.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:ci='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3843.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:cj='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4043.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:da='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3673.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:db='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_3648.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:dc='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4541.rrd':'musers':MAX \
DEF:dd='/usr/share/cacti/rra/ABC_ousers_4592.rrd':'musers':MAX \
CDEF:cdefde='TIME,1446121816,GT,a,a,UN,0,a,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,b,b,UN,0,b,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,c,c,UN,0,c,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,d,d,UN,0,d,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,e,e,UN,0,e,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,f,f,UN,0,f,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,g,g,UN,0,g,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,h,h,UN,0,h,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,i,i,UN,0,i,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,j,j,UN,0,j,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ba,ba,UN,0,ba,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bb,bb,UN,0,bb,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bc,bc,UN,0,bc,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bd,bd,UN,0,bd,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,be,be,UN,0,be,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bf,bf,UN,0,bf,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bg,bg,UN,0,bg,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bh,bh,UN,0,bh,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bi,bi,UN,0,bi,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,bj,bj,UN,0,bj,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ca,ca,UN,0,ca,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cb,cb,UN,0,cb,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cc,cc,UN,0,cc,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cd,cd,UN,0,cd,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ce,ce,UN,0,ce,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cf,cf,UN,0,
cf,IF,IF,T
Post by jbhowe
IME,1446121816,GT,cg,cg,UN,0,cg,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ch,ch,UN,0,ch,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,ci,ci,UN,0,ci,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,cj,cj,UN,0,cj,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,da,da,UN,0,da,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,db,db,UN,0,db,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,dc,dc,UN,0,dc,IF,IF,TIME,1446121816,GT,dd,dd,UN,0,dd,IF,IF,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+,+'
\
AREA:a#FFF200FF:'ABC' \
AREA:b#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:c#EA8F00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:d#4444FFFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:e#FF0000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:f#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:g#FF0000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:h#EACC00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:i#FF7D00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:j#000000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ba#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bb#FF5576FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bc#FFF200FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bd#55009DFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:be#4444FFFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bf#F5F800FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bg#0022CCFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bh#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bi#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:bj#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ca#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cb#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cc#FFC3C0FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cd#00FF00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ce#74C366FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cf#EACC00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cg#000000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ch#4400CCFF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:ci#FFF200FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:cj#EA8F00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:da#EACC00FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:db#FF0000FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:dc#7CB3F1FF:'ABC':STACK \
AREA:dd#FFF200FF:'ABC\n':STACK \
GPRINT:cdefde:LAST:' CUR\: %8.0lf' \
GPRINT:cdefde:AVERAGE:'AVG\: %8.0lf' \
GPRINT:cdefde:MAX:'MAX\: %8.0lf'
Viewing Graph Properties 'All Production In Channel Users'
All Production In Channel Users Zoom Graph
CSV Export
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jbhowe
2015-11-04 13:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Alex.

The document referenced by the link has lots of excellent rrdtool
information. Other subscribers to this forum should take a look at the
entire tutorial.

In regards to my issue related to incorrect MAX totals, I think the section
on Minimum, average and maximums explains why this is occurring. I need to
go through my graphs and the underlying values in the rrd files to get a
better understanding.

Thanks very much for the excellent documentation.

John



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